tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4585230548913609409.post8032478514795784940..comments2024-01-15T12:29:39.850-08:00Comments on Jewish Odysseus: OOHHH, HELL, SOLIDARITY AND RESTRAINT WERE STOMPED INTO THE MUD ANYWAY...Jewish Odysseushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16704379332151214452noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4585230548913609409.post-84366044404404971732011-07-06T07:39:33.912-07:002011-07-06T07:39:33.912-07:00Hesperado, good points, thank you.Hesperado, good points, thank you.Jewish Odysseushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16704379332151214452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4585230548913609409.post-18025914639451749992011-07-04T23:54:35.530-07:002011-07-04T23:54:35.530-07:00Jewish Odysseus,
"I don't see the need t...Jewish Odysseus,<br /><br />"I don't see the need to INSIST on an APOLOGY, as opposed to a correction/retraction, do you? ...<br />So I think the petition, by adding a "poison-pill," needlessly shifted the focus and prolonged a wasteful debate."<br /><br />1. I agree that the initial salvo could have been more gingerly. <br /><br />Or it could have been ruthlessly parsimonious and economical -- example:<br /><br /><i>Open Letter to Pam Geller</i><br /><br /><i>Recently you wrote this:</i><br /><br /><i>[Quote the relevant parts]</i><br /><br /><i>We the undersigned respectfully, and urgently, ask you please to provide evidence for the following assertions you made:</i><br /><br /><i>- [quote assertion from above relevant parts]</i><br /><br /><i>- [quote assertion from above relevant parts]</i><br /><br /><i>- etc.</i><br /><br /><i>We await your response,</i><br /><br /><i>Yours sincerely,</i><br /><i>Etc.</i><br /><br />(In addition, a more forceful follow-up letter would have been drafted (but not yet published), only to be published in the event that Geller would have let too much time go by without a response; or with only an inadequate response.) <br /><br />2. "And who (outside the true slimeballs in the LSM) makes a retraction without an apology, anyway?"<br /><br />After what I've seen over the years, I am confident that both Geller and Spencer are easily up to the task.<br /><br />"The two go together naturally, organically."<br /><br />But sophistry can squirm out of that easily enough -- as long as its purveyors get away with it.<br /><br />3. While I agree that the way the Open Letter was worded was likely a "poison pill", I don't agree that the ensuing debate has been "needless" or "wasteful". That's where we disagree. I think largely one side of the debate has been conducting <i>healthy disagreement</i>, and that's good enough to make it a worthwhile debate -- as long as the issue or issues clarified by that healthy disagreement are important.<br /><br />And in this case, they involve <br /><br />a) the conduct of quasi-leaders of the Anti-Islam Movement, which is an important issue to be aired out in the open, in my estimation; <br /><br />and<br /><br />b) they serve to hold the fire to the feet of Geller, and not permit her to get away with trying to undo, or airbrush out of existence, her initial egregious act.Hesperadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10394374828751466705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4585230548913609409.post-33858333326320524622011-07-04T22:32:53.950-07:002011-07-04T22:32:53.950-07:00My responses are random...My post of the day was a...My responses are random...My post of the day was a big, fat FAIL so I've mostly wandered, answering emails, cleaning the bathroom... And then yours came in and I opened the link...and here I am...or was and am again.<br /><br />Hesperado?! You're everywhere! OMG. This is a plot.<br /><br />As for our blog,it's not all that big. Ask around. In fact, I'm not sure, let me check-- I never open the stats...<br /><br />and I shouldn't have. Our moving average dropped from ~7K to around 6K in the last month.<br /><br />I think it's the swollen comment threads. That's a big drop, no??<br /><br />But i quit paying attention that time when Pamela got other bloggers to delink us...I decided the #s weren't the point if someone was wiling to play those games. <br /><br />Our responsibilty is to our community of workers first: the donors of their time, skills, and financial resources. Our essayists, our translators, our transcribers, our video people.<br /><br />We tithe our donations to our video person, another of PG's victims. But he does great work and he's quick for being self-taught. We rely on his skills. He didn't deserve the cuts.<br /><br />BTW, an old friend emailed in dismay just now re the comment threads...she declined to jump in such a crowded pool. But I grabbed her signature line to pass along to you:<br /><br /><i>"Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act."</i><br />-----Dietrich Bonhoeffer<br /><br />Maybe I can incorporate that into my post (one mostly on James Lewis' essay about Obama's Final Solution for America and Israel)Or maybe I'll start something new & go back to that one later. I've been thinking about the mental/emotional "space" an adult must create in order to 'contain' the distress generated by conflict. If we can learn that, then we're grown ups. If we go off the deep end, name-calling and throwing stuff, then we have some work left to do...<br /><br />So. I don't know if 6K daily is "good" but it's our current visit rate, more or less. IIRC correctly, page views are about double or a little higher. And within a fortnight we'll reach 10 million total. <br /><br />Do I want more traffic? Not if it brings in more comments. However, imho, traffic is dropping *because* of comments run amok.Dymphnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06040064724546519425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4585230548913609409.post-72191480013213660272011-07-04T21:53:53.002-07:002011-07-04T21:53:53.002-07:00"More specifically, If you intend to be inclu..."More specifically, If you intend to be including in your argument an appeal for all potentially disagreeing individuals within the anti-Islam movement to refrain from disagreement as a general principle, on the basis that any kind of disagreement can undermine solidarity, I must respectfully and strenuously... disagree."<br /><br />Ohhh, noooooo, HELL no! I think you put your finger on part of my point, that some disagreements are healthy and NECESSARY, some are petty and meaningless, even counter-productive. But I think both sides here have lost sight of their legitimate concern:<br />1--For PG, it was to ascertain for herself that the EDL was not compromised by people she finds intolerable. But she truly jumped the gun, when all she had to do was send an e-mail or 2 to T Robinson, privately, and NONE of this silliness (and some measurable, if limited, damage to the EDL) wd ever have happened. <br />2--For GoV, it was to minimize the damage to the EDL. I don't know if the pubic petition right off the bat was the right way to go, but it was certainly reasonable. But I don't see the need to INSIST on an APOLOGY, as opposed to a correction/retraction, do you? And who (outside the true slimeballs in the LSM) makes a retraction without an apology, anyway? The two go together naturally, organically. So I think the petition, by adding a "poison-pill," needlessly shifted the focus and prolonged a wasteful debate. And notice that she, in effect, DID retract her charge against the EDL...but no apology.<br /><br />I just think PG's years of strong support for the CJ in Europe earned her a little less harsh response. Tho I agree that she has been grossly harsh to others she has disagreed with...but that's on her, and we know better. Or we should.<br /><br />As you can see in my post, I HAVE disagreed w/her on several occasions, so of course I do NOT believe in papering over principled differences. But I think there is a right way and a wrong way to go about it, and I always try to do it the right way.Jewish Odysseushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16704379332151214452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4585230548913609409.post-34920089360206389622011-07-04T21:32:33.388-07:002011-07-04T21:32:33.388-07:00Jewish Odysseus,
Just wanted to say at the outset...Jewish Odysseus,<br /><br />Just wanted to say at the outset, I like your style of argumentation and rhetoric. <br /><br />More specifically, If you intend to be including in your argument an appeal for all potentially disagreeing individuals within the anti-Islam movement to refrain from disagreement as a general principle, on the basis that any kind of disagreement can undermine solidarity, I must respectfully and strenuously... disagree.<br /><br />Most people who eschew disagreement as a general principle (rather than on a case-by-case basis) I find have a simplistic monolithic view of disagreement. They seem to think it must always be bad, and cannot ever be good or constructive (at least, they consistently seem to recoil from it in aversion every time it comes up in a substantial way).<br /><br />I think, however, that there are two kinds of disagreement: healthy and unhealthy. There's no need to run to the hills or shrink timidly back into a hole of a show of anxiously maintained unanimity any time disagreement, or circumstances that portend it, pop up.<br /><br />If disagreement is pursued in a healthy manner, there's no need to squelch it or sweep it under the rug, for fear that it might morph into some dangerously divisive force. Since disagreement is inevitable (as Dymphna has rightly said more than once), and if there is a form of doing it that is healthy and mature, then we have no choice, <i>sometimes</i> (not necessarily any and every time), but to "let it all hang out" -- and in doing so, try to do that in a healthy and mature way.<br /><br />This particular case (the Pam Geller-EDL Affair) I believe warrants the expression of disagreement out in the open sunshine and breezy air of open discussion. If Westerners are that frail, that they cannot sustain healthy, yet vigorous, disagreement when it's called for, then I'm not sure they'll be up for the broader more daunting task of fighting Islam in the decades ahead.Hesperadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10394374828751466705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4585230548913609409.post-15987608585391901872011-07-04T21:05:07.881-07:002011-07-04T21:05:07.881-07:00Come on now, Dymphna, how can you possibly respond...Come on now, Dymphna, how can you possibly respond to this little BFB (bottom-feeding blog) when you and your husbandly partner-in-crime are constantly spinning massive transAtlantic net-spiracies against all that is good and decent? Where do you find the time? Do you guys write simultaneously with both hands, as Walter Williams likes to say about Thomas Sowell? Or have you graduated from some time-management course for nefarious Machiavellis with dubious agendae?!<br /><br />Seriously, I wd have gladly signed the petition if it had only avoided the "apology" issue. I think Pam has done too much good work for the CJ in Europe not to have earned at least that much restraint. Not every mistake deserves the harshest penalty. And she needs to go a loooooong way down before she'lll be in Charles Johnson's class, come on!<br /><br />As for your comment about zero-sum game, I was sooo close to charging that, but I have also seen her give generous praise and support to other blogs that "compete for market share"...So I don't think that really explains it.<br /><br />I think the poster Westward Ho! really had some good insights at GoV.<br /><br />BTW, as of today GoV is the first blog on my blogroll--I never had one before! [didn't understand it when I started in 2006]. I have great respect and admiration for the work you & the Baron do, tho some of the posters there just need a good clout on the ear. (I didn't like Charles Murray back in the 90s, either.)Jewish Odysseushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16704379332151214452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4585230548913609409.post-64625979688570826062011-07-04T20:16:07.920-07:002011-07-04T20:16:07.920-07:00Indeed. Silence is golden. You're right.
Only...Indeed. Silence is golden. You're right.<br /><br />Only thing is, our friends are priceless. So keep the gold, silence and all.<br /><br />The Europeans wrote that letter as a group effort because they were concerned about the continued existence of the EDL.<br /><br />This is deja vu...LGF-like replays. I remember when he bashed the Sweden Democrats and Vlaams Belang. At the time they only two 'righist' political parties in Europe. Bashing on the EDL is no different.<br /><br />Now SD is in Sweden's Parliament, in the person of the fellow who asked Charles to look at their record. A Swedish Jew, btw. One of life's litle ironies.<br /><br />And VB still continues on, despite the cordon sanitaire set up by other political parties in Belgium. The Orthodox Jews in Antwerp know who their friends are, though. And when an Israeli delegation came to Parliament, which was the ONLY poliitcal party to welcome them? The others left in a huff. <br /><br />VB delegates have been made welcome in Israel...Paul Belien, lately of Brussels Journal, is married to a VB parliamentarian.<br /><br />The shadow of Jewish genocide still hangs over Europe. Ppl on this side of the Atlantic take adavantage of that to demonize groups they don't understand. I can still remember "Dr. Sanity" asking if Europe was a country...<br /><br />Pamela Geller plays hardball; from here she appears to see the world as a zero-sum game and its wonders as though they're scarce materials that one needs to keep a tight grip on. Wish someone could calm her down & convince her there's plenty for everyone. Really. There is.<br /><br />The Europeans were right to compose that letter. We were right to post it. The EDL was under attack -- in the same manner as LGF went after the Sweden Democrats. We fought back with the truth and no doubt we will again.<br /><br />What's she gonna do? Delink us? Call us names? Make spurious claims? Stop sending us money? Or...maybe not send us an invite to join her Anti-Jihad Flotilla sailing from NY on September 11?<br /><br />Freedom's just another word...Dymphnahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06040064724546519425noreply@blogger.com